Well, fellow hunters, it was fun...

The patch isn't finished. Our intent is to bring Survival DPS down to the level of some of the other dps specs while making Marks and BM more attractive in PvE. With pure DPS classes it is probably impossible to engineer a three-way tie on all encounters. However, we think we can make them close enough so that players can choose to play their favorite without feeling like they are a burden on the rest of the group.

For an overall approach, we made a few changes that will buff Survival, or even hunters in general. First, focus generation was lower as a result of a bug with haste buffs such as Hunting Party. We've fixed that bug, so focus generation will be higher now when that buff is present (presumably all the time for Survival). Second, we made Steady Shot scale with haste, which will let hunters get more attacks in overall and have more focus with which to do so. These changes would have been a net buff for Survival without additional nerfs to compensate.

We also changed Cobra Shot and the warrior ability Slam to scale with haste. This does not mean all physical cast-time abilities will automatically scale with haste though.

It looks like the haste change either didn't make it into the PTR build or is bugged. Steady Shot, Cobra Shot and Slam don't appear to be affected by the haste change. Some hunters might be noticing more focus, but that's more than likely from the Hunting Party bug fix. We're still investigating.

To clarify on haste affecting SS and CS - - haste did lower their cast time before but it was a rather old implementation and (although I don't know the technical reasons behind it) there was a desire to update it. The designers wanted to change how Slam works with haste, and getting that code change from the programmers in turn allowed them to handle the hunter shots in a more elegant way as well. Ideally. In retrospect the changes probably shouldn't have even made the patch notes because it was a behind the scenes code change (which happens all the time) and not a meaningful redesign. On the other hand, it's likely some slight differences would be noticed in the shot behavior which might have had some impact on people's DPS and gearing. But, as I said, it's not working correctly and I'm not sure what the next steps are going to be. Whether the fix goes in or doesn't, the effect on SS and CS will be minimal-to-non-existent.

01/12/2011 10:50 AMPosted by Zeherah

Also, I realize this may not be high priority, but it'd be really good if you guys would consider adding a display of our current focus regen (other resource based classes might also appreciate this) in our character sheet.

Makes sense to me. I'll pass it along.

01/12/2011 11:10 AMPosted by Ermako

Why even propose such an excessive nerf that surely will break the Hunter SV spec, making it unviable?

Why, Blizzard, Why?

Heheh. Dramatizations makes me giggle.

Bottom line is that Survival does too much damage right now on live. The damage needs to come down. We'll be working to make sure the final numbers take into account all the other various changes that are going in to the patch to ensure it remains a viable spec, ensure the other two specs are competitively viable as well, and in-range of what we expect the damage output of the class to be relative to others.

We don't want to see logs a few months from now with Unholy DKs winning every fight either. We're adjusting talents for DK's too, but like hunters, we'll make sure the adjustments get them in a good place.

We're evaluating hunter DPS even now, and if it turns out the changes go too far we'll make adjustments.

On PvP, we don't think high damage is the key to hunter success. The Deterrence and Master's Call changes are intended to help to that end and make some defensive mechanics a little less tricky to use. Again, we'll continue evaluating the changes. The patch isn't going live tomorrow.

<3 Also please admit that there was a miscommunication on that "haste buff to steady and cobra" We all know it was true. The nerfs had to be based around this because there's no way we're doing 10% too much damage.

I hereby admit that Drakbel looks like a weird toothy dragonfly with those goggles on.

01/12/2011 12:10 PMPosted by Huntardftw

We're evaluating hunter DPS even now, and if it turns out the changes go too far we'll make adjustments.

^ This is what we hear every time. This is also what never happens. The need for a slight nerf was never in question, it is Blizzard's bull in a china shop approach that is the issue.

I know, you'd think there would be some kind of ... testing... realm where theoretical changes could be played with, and invite actual real world testing and constructive feedback before going live.

If you have worthwhile input or feedback on the changes we welcome it wholeheartedly. Your personal brand of commentary on the situation is, however, not useful.

01/12/2011 12:17 PMPosted by Glo

Can you explain the nerf to serpent spread? How are 10 man raid guilds suppose to handle the sudden lose of viable aoe? If that change goes through we're going to need to bench raiders to bring aoe to fights like magmaw and chogall.

Frost DKs and Demo Locks were definitely doing too much AE damage on fights. We knew once we got those under control that Serpent Spread might be next. AE abilities of every class were nerfed coming into Cataclysm, yet when some players compare their AE damage to that of DKs, locks, and hunters, they were left scratching their heads. We don’t think Serpent Spread is as big a problem as those other abilities, and if we over-nerfed it, then we’ll back those changes out. If you've actually tested the changes and have feedback we definitely welcome it, or even proper theorycrafting by those with an abacus and slide rule, but just seeing a patch note and commenting on it isn't very helpful for us to get good feedback passed along.

I've given feedback to the devs before along the lines of "People don't like this" and then they have the audacity to ask "Why?" and me shrugging my shoulders somehow doesn't quite light a fire under them to act on it.

01/12/2011 12:10 PMPosted by Nolath

Would be awesome to get confirmation that Blizzard is the slightest bit aware that Dark Intent is a huge issue with the numbers Hunters are putting out considering being balanced around a buff from one class that can only be put on one person is insanely stupid.

We don't think Dark Intent is the problem. It's a nice bit of class synergy, but it doesn't make hunters useless without a lock, or OP with one.

With the recent updates to the notes I think this thread has gone too many different directions and become difficult to follow. If you'd like to continue discussion on any specific changes please first look for another thread on the topic to add to, and if you can't find one and sure it isn't covered by someone else's post, go ahead and begin a new thread to discuss it. Just try to make sure the subject line is clear as to what the discussion is about to try to keep down a bunch of threads popping up about the same topic. Thanks everyone.