Let's Try This Again (Hunter PvE 5.4)

So, this isn't solely specific to Hunters, but since it's an issue I see you guys bring up a lot, I want to talk briefly about "utility."

From a top-down perspective, our design philosophy regarding utility goes something like this: everyone brings some sort of benefit to the group, but no one gets an invite based solely on that benefit. We feel that current class mechanics satisfy the first part of that. We're mostly there with the second half, with some exceptions.

Sometimes we just make something too strong to the point that it feels mandatory. That's absolutely true. A current example would be Demonic Gateway, particularly in PvE. It gives a very large benefit in many encounters, and since more Gateways are nearly always a good thing, many raid teams will seek to bring as many Warlocks as they can (though obviously, Warlock DPS has been a factor as well). In that particular case, we're making some changes in 5.4 and, if necessary, may continue to make changes.

The reason I bring that up is that it has the tendency to cast a harsher light than is probably fair on other classes. We feel that, ignoring the extreme outliers like Demonic Gateway, Hunters bring an acceptable amount of utility. Every Hunter has Trueshot Aura and access to an array of buffs and debuffs through their pets (even if not specced Beast Mastery), and abilities like Misdirection and Ice Trap which can be valuable on some encounters. If that's not enough utility to guarantee you a raid invite... then good. We'd rather you get your invite by being a solid raider with good performance.

I'm also slightly confused as to the logic behind some arguments, specifically those along the lines of "our DPS is low, so we need more utility to justify our raid slot." If that's the case, wouldn't you prefer we fix your damage output and/or tone down the overperformers?

I know this doesn't address every concern that's been brought up, and I apologize for that. If and when we have more to share, we will. But I did want to at least shed some light on our thoughts on the "utility" issue overall, for the sake of discussion.

Oh, one thing I can share: we like the idea of removing the focus cost from Dash, so we're going to. That includes Dive and Charge as well.

Hey Lore: as has been mentioned in other "utility" threads, part of the problem here is that nobody agrees on what "utility" is. Is the dev definition of the word something you can shed a little light on? (I realize that may raise the "it's a trap!" alarm, so feel free to ignore if you think that would do more harm than good.)

My own working definition for a few years now has been: anything that is beneficial to the group, while in combat, that doesn't pertain directly to my personal performance in my role. Which basically, for a DPS class, would mean anything that doesn't cause me and only me to deal additional damage, and isn't an out-of-combat thing like summoning.

This is probably pretty close to our definition. As you mention, it's the sort of thing that I'd be hesitant to try to define precisely (it's something of a fluid term even internally).

Do you think it's fair that certain abilities (namely Ancient Hysteria and battle rez) are locked to Beast Mastery only? If it's a 25 man situation, probably, but in 10 man you do run the issue of not having either of these. Sometimes that could lead to Hunter's feeling as though they must have Beast Mastery as a spec.

It's something I can bring up again, but we do like these as Beast Mastery perks. Note that, at least in the case of Ancient Hysteria, 5.4 is adding Drums of Rage (a consumable form of Bloodlust/Heroism made by Leatherworkers) that, while not quite as effective as the Beast Mastery buff, should make things at least a little more flexible for 10-mans.

Long-term (ie: not for 5.4), we will be making some bigger changes to the Hunter class. It may not be a full class revamp (like the Warlock revamp in 5.0), but we do want to give the class a full once-over and make sure that the specs feel different and unique. We are not planning any further, class-wide mechanical changes for 5.4.

We have not yet balanced DPS for Hunters (or anyone) for 5.4. When we do, we'll make sure that as much of that balancing as possible is done via signature shots.

08/05/2013 03:27 PMPosted by Adaon

Before you get excited, note the wording "as much of that balancing as possible."

By that, I meant that signature shots are going to be the primary target for any buffs to bring Hunter damage up, but there's only so much we could buff them depending on how much actually needs to be done. We wouldn't, say, allow Explosive Shot to tick for 500k just to bring Survival PvE DPS up. Instead, we'd bring up Explosive Shot as much as we comfortably could, and then make minor tweaks elsewhere if further balancing was necessary.

08/05/2013 04:03 PMPosted by Bullettime

Marksmanship has been a spec without a niche this entire expansion which is why it hasn't been played.

Apologies for picking out one part of your post, but I think this illustrates pretty well the exact issue we'd like to fix post-5.4. We'd like to make sure that all three specs have a bit more "identity."